Independence referendum

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Lexi Collector
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Independence referendum

Post by Lexi Collector on Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:06 am

Interested to see what the views are on independence among Livi fans.
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EdinburghLivi
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Re: Independence referendum

Post by EdinburghLivi on Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:46 am

No, obvs.
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Bertie Bassett

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Bertie Bassett on Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:13 pm

Ja, Oui, Aye, when you consider we are the 14th richest country in the world by GDP & the UK as a whole is 18th, clearly we are subsidising the rest of the UK...no wonder they want to keep us!



Last edited by Bertie Bassett on Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Smithy

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Smithy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:26 pm

No Thanks
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Liviforever

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Liviforever on Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:49 pm

Latest YouGov poll has Yes at 51% and No at 49%.

The BT fear campaign will be going into overdrive now.
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Liviforever

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Liviforever on Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:27 pm

Osborne promising Scotland more powers after seeing the latest poll result showing the YES campaign winning is apparently not breaking Purdah rules, which say no government can make an announcement designed to influence voters during the last 28 days leading up to a referendum. He's saying the promises aren't coming from the UK Govt, they're from the pro union parties.

This just smacks of desperation now and more dodgyness from the NO campaign. They obv weren't going to offer anything before and are now cobbling together some promises in a panic to the latest poll. The fear campaign hasn't worked so now they're trying bribes.
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Lexi Collector
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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Lexi Collector on Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:01 am

I've been undecided pretty much the entire campaign, although I've made my mind up now. A lot of unionists make reasoned points (as nationalists do too), EL off this site made a really good FB status the other day, which is without a doubt the most sensible thing I've read from somebody with a No affiliation. What I will say is that Better Together will have swayed a lot of votes, and certainly not for their own benefit. A lot of their stuff has been absolutely fucking disgraceful, and their campaign has been spearheaded by complete spastics. They've dug their own grave.

I still think we'll vote no.
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Lexi Collector
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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Lexi Collector on Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:08 am

Liviforever wrote:Osborne promising Scotland more powers after seeing the latest poll result showing the YES campaign winning is apparently not breaking Purdah rules, which say no government can make an announcement designed to influence voters during the last 28 days leading up to a referendum. He's saying the promises aren't coming from the UK Govt, they're from the pro union parties.

This just smacks of desperation now and more dodgyness from the NO campaign. They obv weren't going to offer anything before and are now cobbling together some promises in a panic to the latest poll. The fear campaign hasn't worked so now they're trying bribes.

It's also the way he came up here and told us we couldn't use the pound in an independent Scotland. That was a terrible move, absolute suicide. Himself, Cameron and that evil evil cunt Boris Johnson didn't really seem to fussed about the whole thing, until now. They're absolutely bricking it. Johnson stepping down as Mayor to become an MP, would have been a major turning point in many peoples minds though, I'd imagine. I think it'd be the saddest, most unfortunate version of events ever, if that complete bastard became the man who gained control of Scotland and the Scottish people.
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Liviforever

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Liviforever on Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:14 pm

TBH this is now a win win for Salmond, and Scotland, he was wanting a devo max option originally and was told to go fuck himself. They tried to bury this referendum and at every step have had their arses handed to them by the Scottish people. They took us for dope filled lab rats with no brains and thought we'd just shit ourselves when actually given the chance to vote for independence.

Now they are absolutely shitting themselves and are giving Scotland incentives to stay in the Union.

If they'd taken this seriously to start with and given proper debate on the subject they'd prob have had a majority NO vote secured. All their scare mongering and ridiculous lies have only served to turn people to voting YES.

Being cynical this Royal baby announcement seems like an attempt to sway votes too, pathetic.
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mozam76

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by mozam76 on Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:47 pm

The polls contract at the weekend after a period of debates etc, and the No campaign think that the best thing to do to convince undecideds is to send Cameron, Milliband and Clegg up to Scotland. To get Gordon Brown pontificating about all the stuff that he thinks would be a wonderul idea, yet wasn't wonderful enough to do when he was in power. To fly the Saltire over Downing Street.

I literally, LITERALLY, have no idea what kind of undecided voter is going to vote No after today. The No campaign would have been better just battening down the hatches and carrying on as they were - as it is they have embarrased themselves mightily, and the Yes campaign would be well within their rights to metaphorically put the feet up and get the Hamlets out. I know they won't, obviously, but even so.

I mean - is a No voter going to sit at home tonight and say " the leaders are here - ya beauty", or "thank god they're flying the Saltire over Downing Street, that's strengthened my desire to vote No".

I'm a Yes voter, and am lapping it up with a soup spoon, but I tell you something - I'm beginning to feel embarassed for No voters, and more than a bit sorry for them.
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Liviforever

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Liviforever on Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:03 pm

I'm half expecting them all to turn up in kilts and see you Jimmy bunnets. Laughing

They've cancelled the PM's questions in parliament to all come up here, and Cameron held a wee drinks meeting with top business people to get them to tell everyone how bad it would be if Scotland voted YES. He's seriously bricking it now.

Oh and another lie exposed: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independent-scotland-could-join-eu-in-18-months-1-3535302

AN independent Scotland’s membership of the European Union would be secured within the SNP’s 18-month timescale, a former president of the European Parliament has said.



Ireland’s Pat Cox branded opposition claims that Scotland would find itself frozen out of the EU as “sophistry” and said the country’s expulsion would damage the internal market and lead to “chaos” in the EU fisheries sector.

Their fear campaign has collapsed, although looks like they'll keep on trying with the businessmen Cameron has lined up.
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EdinburghLivi
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Re: Independence referendum

Post by EdinburghLivi on Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:28 pm

Don't feel embarrassed for us, mozam, we will be the ones embarrassed for you 18 months down the line if Scotland votes Yes. It's not fear mongering, it's reality. Statements, facts, reports all ignored by the arrogance of YesScotland who seem to think that arguments like Westminster and Tories are the most important. Win at all costs, who cares about the state of Scotland afterwards.

Agree with Lexi though. We still have it just now and I think Yes will only win if they get 3-4% ahead in the opinion polls.
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Liviforever

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Liviforever on Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:50 pm

What facts are these EL, all I've seen is it could happen, which basically means what the No campaign are saying is nothing more than their opinions (or in some cases just lying). The scare stories are being argued by people who can actually dismiss them as nonsense, like the ex Euro boss in my post above.

Cameron has now had a meeting with 100 and odd business people telling them to let us all know what COULD HAPPEN with a YES vote, like the B&Q boss telling us we could pay more.

The UK face the pound being destabilized if Scotland leave the UK and for that reason they'll want a currency union to settle everything down, again  it was scare mongering over the currency union, not facts at all.

BasilF

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by BasilF on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:31 pm

Up to about 8 months ago I was seriously considering voting yes but I've been subjected to so much vitriol and downright racist comment for possessing what many consider to be an English accent in the name of "nationalism" that I'm definitely voting no.

I returned to the land of my birth over 20 years ago; I've paid hundreds of thousands of pounds in tax and yet neds say they are going to send me back to where I came from after they get independence? What's the point of sending me back to Falkirk may I ask?
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Bertie Bassett

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Bertie Bassett on Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:14 am

Sorry to hear that Basil but why let your choice be swayed by neds?

The question is do you really want Cameron (or Johnson in a few years) or Milliband running (ruining may be more apposite) Scotland or do you want to give Scotland the opportunity to elect its own government...who may well ruin Scotland but at least they'll do it by attempting to do the right thing for Scotland rather than by simply continuing to completely disregard Scotland on the basis that we're too far away to bother about anyway?

Cameron & co have not taken the referendum seriously; they have, until now, failed to come up with anything positive to contribute & I only hope most Scots see through their desperation at offering a "Devo max". They don't want us to go; why? Because iScotland is wealthier than the current UK...which clearly means we are subsidising them; they are better off if we stay; that's why they are "Better together", its better for THEM.

BasilF

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by BasilF on Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:08 am

Bertie Bassett wrote:Sorry to hear that Basil but why let your choice be swayed by neds?

The question is do you really want Cameron (or Johnson in a few years) or Milliband running (ruining may be more apposite) Scotland or do you want to give Scotland the opportunity to elect its own government...who may well ruin Scotland but at least they'll do it by attempting to do the right thing for Scotland rather than by simply continuing to completely disregard Scotland on the basis that we're too far away to bother about anyway?

Cameron & co have not taken the referendum seriously; they have, until now, failed to come up with anything positive to contribute & I only hope most Scots see through their desperation at offering a "Devo max". They don't want us to go; why? Because iScotland is wealthier than the current UK...which clearly means we are subsidising them; they are better off if we stay; that's why they are "Better together", its better for THEM.

Thanks Bertie; the worst comments seem to come from those who fall in a distinct group of late teens to mid twenties - I've really no idea where this came from as ever since I moved back in 1992 I've only had one negative reaction to my accent (or lack of it) and the it was only an expression. For such jingoistic hysteria to be generated to a group of people that are perceived as different over such a short period of time is quite baffling - I'd really hoped the world had moved on since the 1930's.

Some of the comments recently about a Royal birth etc. have been totally bizarre as if it had any relation to the referendum at all; I certainly don't trust Salmond any more than I trust Cameron although I'm pretty sure the latter’s recent comments on the poor guy who was kidnapped by ISIS (or whatever they call themselves now) will have cost him a few points at least. As for Salmond's avoiding answering questions by saying it’s in the white paper - well if I went for a job interview and someone asked me what I did in my last job for example; if I answered that it was in my CV how long do you think the interview would last?

Currency is a concern; true we could continue to use the bank of England pound (as Panama uses the UDS dollar in preference to its own local currency) but that would require substantial reserves of English pound being moved north of the border in exchange for what? Most banks will have to operate on a substantial credit agreement from the Bank of England which will be extremely expensive in the short to medium term. The only real alternative is the Euro but that would depend on our membership of the EU -where we unfortunately have few friends - the Spanish won't want us as it will give strength to their own separatist parties; the French don't want us because they are concerned that the prices of Lamb and beef undermine their local produce and have already tried to ban Whisky as a dangerous spirit (not least because it competes with Brandy which they describe as having definite digestive benefits...) - The Germans however would be in favour primarily because Scotland represents a fertile market for German car - more German produced cars were purchased here in the last 12 months per capita than any other nation in the EU.

Scotland COULD be an important producer of power if we had the political will.; we certainly have the land (wind power and hydro) and with a coastline to rival anywhere else in Europe the potential for tidal and wave power could be immense. We could easily out produce France without the need of nuclear power. With the political will it could be governed every new house built in Scotland was fully energy compliant using the latest solar, wind and thermal power and the same for commercial buildings - this would add to the cost of construction but significantly reduce running cost - but it requires political will.

This was one of the reasons why I was originally considering YES but as I say it requires the political will and leadership - Salmond certainly isnt the guy to do that - neither is Cameron.


Last edited by BasilF on Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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mozam76

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by mozam76 on Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:29 am

BasilF wrote:
Bertie Bassett wrote:Sorry to hear that Basil but why let your choice be swayed by neds?

The question is do you really want Cameron (or Johnson in a few years) or Milliband running (ruining may be more apposite) Scotland or do you want to give Scotland the opportunity to elect its own government...who may well ruin Scotland but at least they'll do it by attempting to do the right thing for Scotland rather than by simply continuing to completely disregard Scotland on the basis that we're too far away to bother about anyway?

Cameron & co have not taken the referendum seriously; they have, until now, failed to come up with anything positive to contribute & I only hope most Scots see through their desperation at offering a "Devo max". They don't want us to go; why? Because iScotland is wealthier than the current UK...which clearly means we are subsidising them; they are better off if we stay; that's why they are "Better together", its better for THEM.

Thanks Bertie; the worst comments seem to come from those who fall in a distinct group of late teens to mid twenties - I've really no idea where this came from as ever since I moved back in 1992 I've only had one negative reaction to my accent (or lack of it) and the it was only an expression. For such jingoistic hysteria to be generated to a group of people that are perceived as different over such a short period of time is quite baffling - I'd really hoped the world had moved on since the 1930's.

Some of the comments recently about a Royal birth etc. have been totally bizarre as if it had any relation to the referendum at all; I certainly don't trust Salmond any more than I trust Cameron although I'm pretty sure the latter’s recent comments on the poor guy who was kidnapped by ISIS (or whatever they call themselves now) will have cost him a few points at least. As for Salmond's avoiding answering questions by saying it’s in the white paper - well if I went for a job interview and someone asked me what I did in my last job for example; if I answered that it was in my CV how long do you think the interview would last?

Currency is a concern; true we could continue to use the bank of England pound (as Panama uses the UDS dollar in preference to its own local currency) but that would require substantial reserves of English pound being moved north of the border in exchange for what? Most banks will have to operate on a substantial credit agreement from the Bank of England which will be extremely expensive in the short to medium term. The only real alternative is the Euro but that would depend on our membership of the EU -where we unfortunately have few friends - the Spanish won't want us as it will give strength to their own separatist parties; the French don't want us because they are concerned that the prices of Lamb and beef undermine their local produce and have already tried to ban Whisky as a dangerous spirit (not least because it competes with Brandy which they describe as having definite digestive benefits...) - The Germans however would be in favour primarily because Scotland represents a fertile market for German car - more German produced cars were purchased here in the last 12 months per capita than any other nation in the EU.

Scotland COULD be an important producer of power if we had the political will.; we certainly have the land (wind power and hydro) and with a coastline to rival anywhere else in Europe the potential for tidal and wave power could be immense. We could easily out produce France without the need of nuclear power. With the political will it could be governed every new house built in Scotland was fully energy compliant using the latest solar, wind and thermal power and the same for commercial buildings - this would add to the cost of construction but significantly reduce running cost - but it requires political will.

This was one of the reasons why I was originally considering YES but as I say it requires the political will and leadership - Salmond certainly is the guy to do that - neither is Cameron.

You sound an intelligent guy, Basil. To that end, don't let the comments of some morons sway your vote - although, I hope you don't mind me pointing out, in your earlier post you said you'd "been subjected to so much vitriol and downright racist comment", yet in your most recent comment you state "I've only had one negative reaction to my accent". Anyhoo.

With regard to your last paragraph - yep, Scotland could be all the things that you say. My belief is that there's a far better chance of those things happening if we are an independent country. With regards to whether or not you think Salmond is the leader who has the will to deliver on it (and an unfortunate typpo from you suggest you thou think he is..!), I think he is - but the beauty is, if he doesn't, he and his party would be voted out leaving the way clear for another Scottish politician with Scottish interests at heart (regardless of the colour of their party rosette), to hopefully implement it.

BasilF

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by BasilF on Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:25 pm

mozam76 wrote:You sound an intelligent guy, Basil. To that end, don't let the comments of some morons sway your vote - although, I hope you don't mind me pointing out, in your earlier post you said you'd "been subjected to so much vitriol and downright racist comment", yet in your most recent comment you state "I've only had one negative reaction to my accent". Anyhoo.

Yes - my comments were really an extension to the earlier statement that this abuse had only really started to occure about 8 months ago - prior to that the only occasion was about 15 - 20 years ago when I went into Dixons to buy a hexidecimal calculator - the sales manager's reaction was apparent that he objected to my accent rather than what I was saying.

Certainly I'm not the only person who has noticed this and yet I'm at a loss to explain why it should be fine for 22 years and only rapidly degrade from about January onwards. Nothing particularly happened then as far as I am aware. Why consider that everyone without a scottish accent are necessarily the enemy and are the ones stopping independence?

For my position I personally believe that devo max is by far the best solution; offering most of the benefits with very little of the downside.
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EdinburghLivi
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Re: Independence referendum

Post by EdinburghLivi on Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:51 pm

Standard Life moving jobs down to England in the event of Yes. Apparently up to 80% down to England and the remaining 20% may not even stay in Scotland.

Scary, scary stuff.
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Liviforever

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Liviforever on Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:32 pm

EdinburghLivi wrote:Standard Life moving jobs down to England in the event of Yes. Apparently up to 80% down to England and the remaining 20% may not even stay in Scotland.

Scary, scary stuff.

Have you got a link to that EL, last I heard way back when they blitzed us with these type of scare stories, SL came out and said they had a plab B for moving but it wasn't def going to happen. Any company would do the same as there was uncertainty after the referendum as it was into the unknown. Same with price rises etc, it COULD go up/happen, not WOULD.

I'd expect lots of these type of stories over the next few days as Cameron had a meeting with business people after the last poll and wanted them to enforce the view we'd be worse off going it alone. Ridiculous about this Devo Max U turn too after people have already made their postal votes. Also they haven't given anything in writing to tell us what these extra powers are, or when we'll get them, it's all hot air the same as it was before when they said vote no and we'd get extra powers.

I'm in agreement with BB on why they're so desperate to keep us, for me they will be worse off but it is by no means certain we will. Nobody is thinking it will be plain sailing, mistakes will be made, it will be a slog getting adjusted and getting everything up and running, but mistakes are being made in our present set up in the Union, and Scotland was classed as 3rd class citizens in that union.
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Liviforever

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Liviforever on Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:43 pm

BasilF wrote:
mozam76 wrote:You sound an intelligent guy, Basil. To that end, don't let the comments of some morons sway your vote - although, I hope you don't mind me pointing out, in your earlier post you said you'd "been subjected to so much vitriol and downright racist comment", yet in your most recent comment you state "I've only had one negative reaction to my accent". Anyhoo.

Yes - my comments were really an  extension to the earlier statement that this abuse had only really started to occure about 8 months ago - prior to that the only occasion was about 15 - 20 years ago when I went into Dixons to buy a hexidecimal calculator - the sales manager's reaction was apparent that he objected to my accent rather than what I was saying.

Certainly I'm not the only person who has noticed this and yet I'm at a loss to explain why it should be fine for 22 years and only rapidly degrade from about January onwards. Nothing particularly happened then as far as I am aware. Why consider that everyone without a scottish accent are necessarily the enemy and are the ones stopping independence?

For my position I personally believe that devo max is by far the best solution; offering most of the benefits with very little of the downside.

What is the devo max offer though, they've just thrown this out without actually having a clue what they're offering, who is offering it, when will we get it etc. Libdems promised a lot before they went into a coalition and look what happened, I've seen boht Labour and Conservatives doing the same, I really don't trust any of them with this devo max promise, it is being used as a bribe after people have already voted too, very amateurish, and this is what you're voting for?

It is an ill thought out verbal offer borne out of panic, this is a serious issue and they are making it look very slapstick.
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Bertie Bassett

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Bertie Bassett on Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:26 pm

EdinburghLivi wrote:Standard Life moving jobs down to England in the event of Yes. Apparently up to 80% down to England and the remaining 20% may not even stay in Scotland.

Scary, scary stuff.

Yep, that is the point of scaremongering; rule by fear.

I used to work at Scottish & Newcastle; they said they would move everything out of Scotland after devolution...did they? Not quite; instead they sold everything off to Heineken.

As I have been saying, don't vote based on your fears, vote based on your hopes.


Basil...Yes is not a vote for Salmond; you'll get that chance (or chance not to) IF its a yes & we have our own elections in 2016.

I'd rather be  YES-man than a NO-body

Salmond wanted Devo-max on the voting slip but Cameron didn't agree; now he's falling over himself to try & promise it as part of the NO vote... he's not a politician, he's a jumped up school boy.
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EdinburghLivi
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Re: Independence referendum

Post by EdinburghLivi on Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:54 pm

My hopes are for job progression slowly over the next few years. As I work in financial services, this is going to be near fucking impossible in an independent Scotland because companies can't afford uncertainty and will move. It's not fear mongering, it's reality.

The 97 devolution is absolutely nothing like the independence Alex Salmond is promising voters.

Who gives a fuck about Tories & Westminster when thousands of people not in Scotland, but in Edinburgh alone, are going to be out of jobs? It's absolutely sickening and I can't believe YesScotland are being so reckless. I've never hated an entity as much in my life.
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Bertie Bassett

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Bertie Bassett on Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm

You need to read "The Wee Blue Book"; it is admittedly a Yes publication but the bulk of its quotes which are fully referenced are from the No camp.

Westminster & the Tories have been putting people out of jobs in Scotland for decades...I hate The Proclaimers musically but..."Bathgate no more, Linwood no more etc etc etc"

No one will move before they see what any independence negotiations produce as the "deal" for Scotland to go independent; anything else would be stupidity; if that delivers a good deal then they will stay, if it is not so good then I'd not be surprised to see many stay anyway as the cost of moving could outweigh staying put.

The only recklessness I see is the No Camp charging around with the 3 amigos trying to stop the haemorrhage as they wake up to the fact that they have not made any preparation in the event that Scotland finally has the stomach to stand on its own two feet.

Have a look at the UK coat of arms on your passport; I don't pretend to understand the imagery entirely but there is a Lion on the left wearing a crown; this represents England. There is a Unicorn on the right which represents Scotland. I could suggest that a crowned Lion is clearly more powerful than a mythical Unicorn suggesting that England is the real seat of power & Scotland is a country in name only; but the thing that really struck me when I saw this (shown to me by an undecided voter by the way) is that the Unicorn is chained...it is not free & never will be while the "union" remains.

Finally look at the flag of Scotland; it is the correct way to vote.
Look at the flag of the UK; its a spoiled paper.
The flags tell you how to vote.
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Liviforever

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Re: Independence referendum

Post by Liviforever on Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:46 am

EdinburghLivi wrote:My hopes are for job progression slowly over the next few years. As I work in financial services, this is going to be near fucking impossible in an independent Scotland because companies can't afford uncertainty and will move. It's not fear mongering, it's reality.

The 97 devolution is absolutely nothing like the independence Alex Salmond is promising voters.

Who gives a fuck about Tories & Westminster when thousands of people not in Scotland, but in Edinburgh alone, are going to be out of jobs? It's absolutely sickening and I can't believe YesScotland are being so reckless. I've never hated an entity as much in my life.

The main reason for the uncertainty is the government refusing to tell us what they'd do if it was a YES vote, they don't want to go into that as it would clear up a lot of peoples fears.

Every transition to a new state has some uncertainty and a degree of risk. But there are no bases for extreme anxiety about an independence transition in Scotland. The Scottish government’s record in public management is a good one, its published plans for transition are relatively specific and reasonable, and the long-run viability of a Scottish state looks strong. The main current uncertainties arise from the London government’s apparent reluctance to do any planning for, or to make clear to Scottish voters, how a transition to independence would be handled at their end.

When a UK general election looms, all the main parties with a chance of being in government get a degree of access to the civil service, and to government documents and statistics, so that they can be briefed on the realities they would face, should they come to power. The aim is to help them put well-costed policies in place, before they begin making election promises to voters.
Unfortunately, there has been no equivalent process for Scotland’s referendum, despite its momentous implications. Westminster ministers have instead given no information at all to the Scottish government or their officials. Whitehall has been forbidden to discuss issues with Scottish officials and to do any contingency planning for independence, in case the conclusions suggest independence would not cause major problems.

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